Grow Stevia and Stick It to the Man!



I recently saw a very funny television commercial about Splenda Naturals brand Stevia called “The sweetest thing you COULD grow” (see below). I laughed pretty much all the way through. 

Fabulous Splenda commercial! Video:

The premise is that you could grow stevia yourself, but it’s such a bother when you could simply open a pack of Splenda stevia and pour it into your ice tea. One character says about growing stevia, “I mean, if you had time, and you liked gardening, and—you know—you liked kinda doin’ stuff the hard way.”

And it’s sooo true … except that gardeners do like gardening and they do like “kinda doin’ stuff the hard way.” Plus, growing stevia really isn’t that hard!

So, the commercial backfired with me. It simply made me want to grow stevia even more, thus thumbing my nose at big business. And besides, I already grow stevia and have for years.

What Is Stevia?

Stevia (Stevia rebaudiana). Photo:

Stevia may be a commercial sweetener these days, but it was originally a plant: Stevia rebaudiana, from the Asteraceae family. You may hear it called sweet leaf, sweet herb, honey leaf or candy leaf. It’s named after Pedro Jaime Esteve (1500–66), a Spanish physician and botanist, while the epithet rebaudiana comes from Dr. Ovid Rebaudi, the 19th-century Paraguayan chemist who first extracted the sweet constituents from the plant.

It hails from South America and has been used for some 1500 years by the Guarani people of Brazil and Paraguay who call it “ka’a he’ ẽ” (“sweet herb”). They use it to sweeten bitter foods and medicines and as a snack. It contains glycosides like stevioside and rebaudioside that repel insects (yes, the plant concocted them as natural insect repellants!), but fresh leaves also have 10 times the sweetness of sugar. (Commercial stevia concentrate can be 300 times sweeter than sugar!) Humans can taste the sweetness, but can’t digest the glycosides. And that means stevia is a natural sweetener with essentially no calories, which is why stevia is so often of interest to people wishing to reduce their caloric consumption.

The flowers are not very impressive. Photo: Forest and Kim Starr, Wikimedia Commons

The plant is a small shrub about 30 to 80 cm (1 to 2.5 feet) in height with oblong, mid-green, slightly hairy opposite leaves with prominent veins, a lightly toothed margin and a very short, sometimes absent petiole. It grows upright at first, but older stems, green at first, eventually turning woody, bend and wander if you don’t cut them back. Clusters of tiny white flowers are produced in the late fall or winter, as it is a short-day plant. They aren’t particularly attractive and it’s probably best to remove them.

Growing Stevia

Despite its subtropical origin, stevia is easily grown in temperate climates as an annual. Or indoors as an edible houseplant. And it basically needs only the same care you’d offer to just about anything else you’d grow.


Stevia does wonderfully outdoors in the summer garden. Photo:

Plant stevia plants outside in late spring when both the soil and the air have warmed up… about the same season you would plant out tomato or peppers. Place them in full sun to very light shade in good garden soil: well drained, evenly moist, with a pH ranging from acidic to alkaline (5 to 8), although a range of 6.7 to 7.2 is best. In other words, your vegetable or flower garden would probably be perfect, as would any potting soil. 

Space the plants about 20 to 25 cm (8 to 10 inches) apart and keep them evenly moist. Mulching can help with that and you’ll likely need to water during times of drought. Container plants dry out faster than garden plants, so keep a special eye on them.

Whatever fertilizer or compost you apply to your other garden plants will suit stevia just fine. There is no need to fertilize abundantly: as with most herbs, the taste is more concentrated when the plant is a bit underfertilized.

Stevia is not frost hardy and will not survive outdoors in temperate climates. It will live on in USDA hardiness zones 9 and above, and sometimes even 8, as it will grow back from the base if only the leaves are frosted. Prolonged freezing, though, will kill it.


Stevia grows readily indoors provided you offer it quite intense light. A sunny windowsill or a place under fluorescent or LED grow lights will suit it wonderfully. 

Stevia can be bit etiolated and floppy in the winter, but it still survives. Photo:

In natural light, it will probably etiolate somewhat during the short, gray days of winter, but you can then simply prune it back. It will start to look better when a burgeoning spring brings more sun. 

Watering is as for almost any houseplant: when the potting mix is dry to the touch, water thoroughly with tepid water. How often you need to water will depend on your growing conditions as well as the size of the pot (large plants in small pots will need more frequent watering). 

Stevia wilts rapidly when its soil is dry, but will recuperate if you catch it before it goes too far. Still, letting it dry out with any frequency is not a good idea, as each drought session weakens the plant. In fact, underwatering is second-biggest cause (after lack of light) for failure with this plant.

It seems to be very resistant to insects and diseases, so no worries there.

Normal home temperatures are fine. Stevia prefers a fairly humid atmosphere, but will survive dry indoor air. Just about any fertilizer will do: apply it during the spring and summer months.

Repot annually, as the plant does spread through offsets and will eventually fill its pot. When you find yourself needing to water more than once a week, you can be sure your plant needs more root room.


Stevia is not a long-lived plant and diminishes in quality after two or three years, after which time it’s best to start new ones.

Rooting stem cuttings is the easiest way of multiplying stevia. Photo: Stephen Nellas

And taking stem cuttings is probably the best way to go. This can be done at any season, but most gardeners will probably root stems from garden plants in early fall in order to bring young plants indoors for the winter. Apply a touch of rooting hormone to the cut stem and root the cuttings in ordinary potting mix kept slightly moist under clear plastic dome or inside a clear plastic bag. You can also root stevia in water, but then its long-term success rate is much lower.

Alternatively, you can also divide mature plants and pot up the divisions.

As for growing it from seed, well…

Stevia seeds can be hard to find and are definitely a challenge to germinate. Photo:

First, you probably won’t be able to grow stevia from seed you harvested yourself. Cross-pollination is necessary for the flowers to produce seeds, so you’d need two different clones … and most nurseries sell cutting-grown plants that are all identical. Also, in most climates, your plants will be indoors at blooming time (October through December in the Northern Hemisphere), so pollinating insects won’t reach them. Thus, seed production isn’t too likely.

Secondly, commercially produced seed, while sometimes available, is very hard to germinate. Stevia is probably in fact among the most difficult herbs to grow from seed. Try sowing the seeds on the surface of a damp, sterile seed mix. Press lightly, but don’t cover with mix. Do cover the tray with a clear plastic dome. Bottom heat is essential: use a heat mat. And expose the tray to light, also needed for germination. 

Even under those conditions, expect only a minority of seeds to sprout.

So… I suggest reconsidering starting plants from seed: cuttings or division really are the ways to go.


Harvesting stevia. Photo:

You can harvest and use leaves at any time for fresh eating, but the taste is most concentrated in autumn, just before the plant blooms. If you are growing stevia with the intention of drying it (which concentrates the sweetness even more and makes it possible to store it), fall would be the logical season to do so.

The easiest way to harvest stevia is to cut off a few stems, leaving about 10 cm (4 inches) at the base so it can grow back, then strip off the leaves. The soft stem tip is also edible. 

Using Stevia

Stevia can be used in almost any recipe that needs a touch of sugar. Photo: Lilgrandma likes,

I’m more a gardener than a cook, so make only a limited use of stevia leaves. Most often, I eat it fresh, as a snack, often with my grandkids. I’ve told them it’s called “sweet leaf” and they really bought into that. I haven’t yet convinced them that it replaces dessert, but I’m working on it.

Of course, stevia can be used much more widely than that. It’s popular as a replacement for sugar in tea, coffee, lemonade and other drinks, you can sprinkle it on hot and cold cereals or add it to smoothies and yoghurt. It’s also used in baking of all kinds: 1 teaspoon of dried crushed Stevia leaves equals about 1 cup of sugar. However, you’ll have to seriously modify any favorite recipes, as stevia may replace sugar’s sweetness, but it can’t replace its volume and texture.

Besides being very sweet, stevia leaves do have a slight aftertaste, rather like licorice, a flavor that has been removed from commercial concentrates. Some cultivars with a reduced aftertaste, like ‘Sweetie Star’, are available. Check with a local herb grower for their recommendation.

As Splenda suggests, stevia is certainly “the sweetest thing you COULD grow,” but I disagree with the company in one regard: I think you SHOULD grow it. But still, thanks so much to Splenda for the amusing commercial! 

How to “Save” Supermarket Herbs



Pot of herbs in a supermarket.

Supermarkets sell pots of herbs at very attractive prices… and who doesn’t want fresh herbs for their kitchen? However, the plants they sell rarely live very long. Why is that? And what can you do to make them last longer?

Produced for Rapid Consumption

It’s important to understand from the start that herbs sold in supermarkets were never intended to last long. They’re designed to “hold” for a period of 1 to 2 weeks. Yes, that short a time! They’re mass produced with ordinary consumers, not gardeners, in mind, people who only want fresh herbs and have no expectation that they will last any longer than the produce they would put in a refrigerator. And they do get their money’s worth: a potted herb lasts up to 2 weeks while cut herbs sold in the same supermarket will only last 4 or 5 days.

You Can Extend Their Life… Sometimes

But if you’re read this text, it’s probably because you’re fairly savvy gardener, not a typical supermarket consumer. You have a hard time resisting the temptation to “save” plants and you may already have one on hand and are wondering what to do with it.

The good news is that you probably can considerably extend the life of these otherwise moribund herbs if you will be planting them outdoors, but, if you expect to be able grow them indoors on a windowsill, your success is likely to be only modest. That’s because herbs, almost without exception, are uncomfortable indoors. Their true place is outdoors, in pots or in the ground. (For more information on that subject, read An Indoor Herb Garden: Not as Easy at it Looks. But if you’re willing to accept “modest success” as being acceptable, here is what to do to keep supermarket herbs alive:

Buy Early


Just skip half-dead herbs: buy the healthiest ones you can see.

First, if you want to buy herbs sold in supermarkets, don’t wait too long. Supermarkets aren’t plant nurseries and supermarket personnel rarely take any care of the herbs they sell, counting instead on a quick turnover. They rarely water them. Instead, they just toss plants when they stop looking good and bring new ones in, just like they do with vegetables and fruits. Also, lighting in supermarkets is abominable, yet living herbs need light to survive. Total neglect and no light? Things aren’t looking too bright!

The secret is to purchase the plants as soon as possible after they arrive in the store, while they still look healthy. If they already have that half-dead look, they probably are half dead! Leave those plants the store!

Too Densely Planted


There are far too many basil seedlings in this pot. You’ll have to thin or divide if you want a certain success.

Supermarket herbs are sold very densely packed into their pots. Most are just young seedlings only a few weeks old and would look wimpy on their own, so producers jam them at a rate of 10 to 20 per pot. That gives a fuller, more mature looking pot, but one that is way too crowded! Even under ideal conditions, the seedlings would soon be struggling for survival.

One possibility then is to simply thin the plants, leaving only 2 or 3 plants per pot. Do this by cutting off the excess plants at the base. Yes, with scissors! Just keep the healthiest specimens in each pot and prune out the others. Obviously, you can use the thinnings in your cooking.


Divide the herbs and repot. 1 to 3 plants per pot should do.

Or unpot and divide them. You probably don’t need 10 to 20 basil or coriander plants, though, so logically you could simply produce 2 or 3 pots (4-inch/10-cm pots would be appropriate), each containing from 1 to 3 plants. Put the others back in their original pot… and use them up quickly. Or just compost them.


Enter a caption

You’ll also see herbs all on their own in a plastic sleeve, without a pot, yet with a root system. These were grown hydroponically. As long as their roots still appear white and moist (not brown and dry), you can try “saving” them too. Just pot them up (again, at a rate of one to three plants per pot) in soil, as above.

Keeping Herbs Healthy

Now that your herb plants have room to grow, it’s time to consider how you’re going to care for them.

Start by watering them well. This will help the plants better recover from transplanting, which is always a bit of a shock to their system.

And from now on, water whenever the soil is dry to the touch. Note that they will need less frequent waterings at first, then more as they grow to fill their container. There is therefore no proper frequency to recommend: you have to touch the soil and use your judgment. (Or lift the pot: pots become lighter as plants dry out, a sign it needs water.)


In winter, herbs need as much sun as you can give them.

Now place them in direct sunlight in a heated room. In winter, unfortunately, the sun is low and weak and only shines for a few hours a day. Thus plants, after an initial encouraging recovery following thinning or repotting, will probably slow down again and many will indeed begin to gradually waste away… but at least they will have lasted 1-2 months rather than 1-2 weeks!

If you don’t have the intense natural light they need, consider hanging a 2-tube fluorescent lamp 6 to 12 inches (15 to 30 cm) above your herbs, leaving it on 14 hours a day. That will give respectable results. You’ll find more information on using artificial lights to grow your herbs here.

In summer, if possible, acclimate your herbs bit by bit to full sunlight over a 2-week period and place them outside. There you will see them really come to life!


Humidity tray.

Indoors, good atmospheric humidity is important. You could, for example, place the pots on a humidity tray. See Houseplants Love Humidity Trays for more information.

Watch out for insects! They love plants growing under stress and herbs grown indoors are definitely under stress. Sometimes just rinsing them thoroughly with clear water is enough to knock the pest off. If not, a treatment with insecticidal soap (an organic product available in garden centers) should help.

Individual Cases


Basil as sold in a supermarket, suffering from overcrowding. You’ll have to thin or divide the plants.

Basil: It’s short-lived indoors, but could survive up to 2 months if your conditions are fairly good. In summer, on the other hand, it will positively thrive… if you grow it outdoors.

Chives: A rather sparse grower indoors, but at least it is long-lived. In the spring, put it outside for the summer so it can recuperate… and leave it there until late in the fall. Let it go through a few nights of frost before you bring it back in and it will do much better the second year.


Coriander packed tightly a pot. Again, thin or divide!

Coriander: This is a fast growing annual: even repotting and giving it more space to grow can only extend its life by a few weeks. Once it starts to go downhill, toss it in the compost.

Mint: Keep the soil moist and you should be able to get a bit of growth indoors. It’s once it’s outside for the summer, in a partially shaded location and in moist soil, that it really picks up.


Parsley too needs space to grow: thin or divide!

Parsley: Parsley tends to recover quite quickly after you thin or repot it, but then it slows down as indoor conditions begin to weigh on it. Even so, you should be able to get it through the winter alive while harvesting a few leaves. If you grow it outdoors over in summer, on the other hand, you’ll probably produce more parsley than you can possibly use. It’s a biennial: once it starts to flower, it will become bitter and you’ll need to replace it.

Rosemary: This ought to be a tough, long-lived plant, but plants sold in supermarkets have usually been so badly mistreated they die once you get them home. (Actually, you see a lot of already-dead rosemary plants still on sale in supermarkets!) I therefore recommend skipping supermarket plants and getting one from a reputable nursery. If you insist on trying it indoors, give it a sunny window in a barely heated room and water it very, very carefully. But it only really thrives when it’s outside for the summer.

Sage: Sage tends to languish in the house, but will do modestly well in a room that’s a bit on the cool side (it’s from a climate where winters are cool). Full sun is a must.

stevia plan into a bucklet

Stevia may need a bit of pruning, but is otherwise easy to grow indoors.

Stevia: This super-sweet plant is one of the rare herbs that is of tropical origin and is therefore adapted to indoor conditions (we keep our homes at tropical temperatures!). Even so, it finds the short days of winter difficult and tends to etiolate (stretch for the light), so just prune it back as needed. When spring comes with its longer days, it will be much fuller.

Thyme: It does fairly well indoors in a pot, at least if you offer it full sun, but its indoor growth will still be stretchy and floppy. A summer outside will really do it good!20161103c

An Indoor Herb Garden: Not as Easy as it Looks




Most herbs suffer in silence indoors over the winter.

Can you really grow herbs indoors over the winter and thus always have fresh herbs to add to your menu. Yes, but… and it’s a big but.

And that’s in spite of the fact that lifestyle magazines and television shows keep on pushing the idea that growing herbs indoors is as easy as pie. I can pretty much guarantee that none of the journalists who promote the technique have ever tried it. They only repeat, like parrots, misinformation gleaned from others just as misinformed. So let’s dot a few i’s here.

Why Things Go Wrong

The problem is that most herbs just aren’t adapted to the conditions we can offer them in our homes during the winter, especially low light and dry air. Even in front of a large south-facing window, the light received by windowsill plants December through February is equivalent to no more than deep shade outdoors in June and July, notably because days are very short and often cloudy to boot. Fluorescent lights help, of course (set the timer for 16 to 18 hours a day to ensure maximum light), but give moderate light at best, enough to keep the plants alive, but not enough to promote the dense healthy growth of herbs grown outdoors.

Also, the atmospheric humidity in most homes is closer to that of the Sahara Deser than what herbs would like, that is at least 50%.


Barely 3 weeks after being brought indoors, this basil is already dead.

Plus plants weakened by a lack of light and dry air become prone to diseases and bugs, including whiteflies and spider mites. And eventually start to die back.

But don’t give up hope just yet: there are some herbs that do fairly well in the house and you can keep most at least alive if you know how to handle them.

Indoor Herb Scorecard




Bay laurel is one of the few herbs that actually does well indoors.

Bay Laurel or Bay Leaf (Laurus nobilis): This leathery-leaved plant is the easiest herb to grow indoors. You can place it in sun or partial shade or under a fluorescent lamp. Its growth is very slow, but it does grow, and it seems indifferent to the entire indoor temperature range, from 34˚ to 95˚F (1 to 35˚C). By bringing your bay laurel indoors every fall and putting it back outdoors every summer (it can stay outdoors all year in zones 8 to 11), it will gradually become a fairly sizeable shrub or even a small tree, but that will take decades.

Watch out for scale insects, though! Most bay laurels sold these days are already infested (read Another Bay Laurel Bites the Dust for more details), so make sure you get yours from a reliable source.


Parsley does fairly well indoors… if you give it your brightest light.

Parsley (Petroselinum crispum): If you pot yours up and place it in a brightly lit spot at normal room temperatures, it will grow slowly but steadily throughout the winter. The leaves may be a bit floppy, but they’ll still be edible. Watch out for spider mites though. It’s not worth saving parsley for a second year. It’s a biennial and begins to bloom in the spring, then becomes bitter. It’s done its job: just toss it in the compost!


Stevia is one of the happier campers indoors.

Stevia or Sweet Leaf (Stevia rebaudiana): This ultra sugary herb is one of the few that is of tropical origin (most classical herbs come from climates where winters are cold or even freezing) and, therefore, very tolerant of the warm temperatures we maintain in our homes. If you set the thermostat to please yourself and your family, it will be happy too. Give it as much sun as you can and if it starts to etiolate (stretch for the light), just chop it back. Give it normal houseplant care, including watering when the soil is dry to the touch.

There are other herbs of tropical origin that may not be traditional cooking herbs in European cuisine, but that have the advantage of doing fairly well in our homes. This group includes the various scented geraniums (Pelargonium spp.) and rau ram or Vietnamese coriander (Persicaria odorata). Lemongrass (Cymbopogon spp.) is a tropical grass (zones 9 to 12) that can also be grown indoors. Given it’s origins, you’d think it would do well there, but in fact, keeping it alive can be difficult unless you can offer it a very sunny windowsill.

“Think Twice” Herbs

These are herbs that will do all right indoors, but only if you meet their special needs. These aren’t necessarily going to be the stars of your windowsill, but they ought to be able to produce a bit of a crop indoors.


Young basil plants do all right indoors, but mature plants tend to keel over.

Basil or sweet basil (Ocimum basilicum): More people fail with basil than any other herb, but it will grow quite well indoors if you know what to do.

It’s important to understand that sweet basil is a naturally short-lived plant, little more than an annual. So when you try to bring in a basil plant from your summer garden, you’re dragging in a plant that is just about to croak: it rarely survives the transition between outdoors and in. However, if you sow basil seeds (ideally under lights), you’ll be starting afresh with a new young plant and should get excellent results… at first. It does go downhill more quickly indoors than out, so when it shows any sign of decline, harvest it and make a huge batch of pesto.

By resowing occasionally and always harvesting basil when it is still young and vigorous, you should get great results. Just give the plants the best light you can.

Note that basil loves heat: this is not a plant to put in a cool room. Keep in a spot that remains relatively warm even at night (preferably above 60˚F/15˚C) and it should to fine.

So much for sweet basil. There are perennial basil species that are naturally long-lived and that will do much better indoors, thriving over the entire winter in bright light. This group includes African blue basil (O. ‘African Blue’), holy basil (O. tenuiflorum) and lemon basil (O. x citriodorum), including the popular variegated form, O. x c. ‘Pesto Perpetuo’. Note though that these easier-to-grow basils don’t have the same taste as sweet basil (O. basilicum).


Chives needs a cold treatment before you bring it in.

Chives (Allium schoenoprasum), lemon balm (Melissa officinalis) and French tarragon (Artemisia dracunculus sativa): These three cold-climate plants tend to decline indoors… unless you give them a cold treatment first. Pot them up in September or October, but then leave them outdoors until they’ve gone through a good frost or two (or three). Now, when you do bring them in, they’ll think it’s spring and start to grow vigorously.

Oregano (Origanum vulgare), sage (Salvia officinalis) and thyme (Thymus vulgaris and others): These plants prefer to be outdoors in the winter and you may find mature plants don’t adapt well to being moved indoors. You’d do better to take stem cuttings in the autumn and grow the cuttings indoors instead. They’ll still be in their “young and vigorous” stage of life, allowing you a decent harvest.

Lemon thyme (T. x citriodorus) is particularly easy variety for indoor growing.


Rosemary: not the easiest herb indoors.

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis): I’m always annoyed when gardeners gush on and on about how beautiful their rosemary is in the winter and how they have no problem growing it. You see, I just don’t have quite the indoor conditions it wants, that is a cool but intensely sunny room. Nor to most people. And a rosemary plant that doesn’t like its conditions is soon a dead rosemary plant.

Look for a spot when temperatures remain below 60˚C (15 ° C) at night (and in fact, during the day as well if possible), yet above freezing, and water it carefully, just enough so that the soil is barely moist and you too can have rosemary you can be proud of.

True lavender or English Lavender (Lavandula angustifolia): It prefers to spend its winters in the ground, but can sometimes remain alive indoors under the same conditions as rosemary – bright sun, low temperatures, and careful watering – although it won’t do much more than just sit there. My personal thought is that lavender really is an outdoor plant and there is no really good reason to want to grow it indoors.

Less hardy Spanish Lavender (L. stoechas and its hybrids, zones 7-9) can also spend the winter indoors under similar conditions. Bringing it indoors is a way for cold-climate gardeners to save it from the cold.

Mint (Mentha spp.): There are many species of mint and some do better indoors than others, but in general these are rock-hardy herbs that actually prefer a winter outdoors. When you try to grow them indoors, they tend to gradually deteriorate, unable to adapt to constant heat and dry air. But if you have a barely heated but brightly lit room or a cold greenhouse, they can do quite well. Unlike the two previous plants (rosemary and lavender), that prefer to their soil to remain barely moist, water mints well, although without exaggeration: they don’t like to dry out.

Herbs Not Worth Saving

Dill (Anethum graveolens), anise (Pimpinella anisum), coriander (Coriandrum sativum), borage (Borago officinalis) and chervil (Anthriscus cerefolium): These are annuals and will be nearing the end of their life cycle in fall, if in fact they are not already dead at that time. There is no use trying to save from the cold a plant that it is genetically programmed to die only a very short time later!

You can always sow seeds of these plants indoors (fluorescent light might well be necessary) if you want access to fresh leaves during the winter, but they probably won’t produce seed indoors and for several of these herbs, seeds are the part most often consumed.

Winter Care for Herbs

If you do decide to bring some herbs indoors for the winter, remember they’ll need as much light as you can give them as well as good atmospheric humidity. For the latter purpose, the use of a room humidifier may be necessary. Water them generously when the soil is dry to the touch.

If you grow your herbs in front of a window, stop fertilizing in late November. You don’t want to encourage them to grow under poor light, as that will lead to weak, etiolated growth. Start fertilizing again at the end of February or in early March, when the days are longer.

If you grow herbs under lights, that’s a different story: you’ll be able to maintain long days (16 to 18 hours) all year, so they’ll keeping growing all through the winter. Feed them monthly with an all purpose fertilizer.

Keep your eyes open for pests, especially spider mites and whiteflies, but also aphids. Treat them with insecticidal soap if you see any. And remove diseased leaves on sight, as they can spread like wildfire on stressed plants… and the average indoor herb is very stressed!

With a the information above, you should be able to cultivate at least a few herbs in your home this winter… and maybe even impress your guests with a bouquet of fresh herbs on the table in mid-January!

But be honest with yourself: growing herbs indoors may be trendy, but is not an ideal situation for most of them. You’re putting them through considerable stress and most would really prefer being left outdoors for the winter.

My thought is the following: for everything there is a season… and winter is just not the season for most herbs. A truly laidback gardener would learn to accept that herbs are summer plants and leave it at that.